help my truck please!!! - F-Series & SuperDuty Diesel Forums

ninteyeight.5 · 01-14-2012, 05:00 PM

Please note that the extended time frame this happens in is largely due to my not being able to go to the dealership except for Fridays. My work schedule is 4X10, so only that day is free when they are open. The recent switch to emails has been due to being out of town, so this also should not be construed as a long time taken on their part.

I took my truck [1998 1/2 - 7.3L Powerstroke - F 350] in December 16, 2011 to have all the injectors and glow plugs replaced. I told the service writer that it had trouble starting at work a few evenings before when the temperature had gotten near freezing, even with the glow plugs. I also told him the mileage had been falling off lately and with the advanced mileage [198K] replacing them should hold me over to the reasonable life expectancy of the engine.

As arranged beforehand, I went in to pick it up the following Friday[12/23/2011]. When I went into the yard to start it with the temperature about 45F that day, it still didn't want to start at first. when it did start, there was a noticeable miss at idle. Then I ran the idle up to 1300rpm on the engine idle control box, to see if it would smooth out as it warmed up, but it didn't. I went back and after starting the engine again, showed the service writer the above since he had driven the truck into their yard when i brought the truck in. He said he could also feel the miss at that time, and wrote up a new work order. I was told they would call me when the problem was located.

The following Tuesday, 12/27/2011 I called them around noon wondering why it was taking so long. I was told that #8 injector had issues, but they still couldn't find out why it did not readily start the Friday before. The man who I talked to said they would call back when they located the problem. After noon, I was called, and told the cold start problem was that the ICP was disconnected, and now with it reconnected, the cold start problem was fixed. He said that #8 injector would need replaced, and after checking that parts dept. had one in stock he called back saying that he would call me if it was ready that evening, or the next morning.

On 12/28/2011 @ 2:30PM, I was called and told the injector was replaced, but the miss was still there. I was also told that they had gotten codes that the problem was a bent rocker arm OR a bent piston push rod OR a bent valve OR a bent rocker arm push rod...causing poor compression, and that to proceed I would be responsible for ALL of the costs of repair from here on out.

After some major whining to FOMOCO, the dealership agreed to start locating what ever had gone wrong.

The next time i talked to the service manager by email, he said:

"Well to be honest I have done at my expense a lot more invasive diagnostics, low compression is one of the factors, and you have 3 cylinders at the maximum low compression levels, which is 25psi low the normal compression level is 400psi and you have three cylinders at 375psi. But this still does not explain the miss off idle, the vehicle while at idle does not quiver or miss but at the rpm you described (12-1300 rpm ) it does so now I have to my tech to put the old injectors back in the unit to verify that the condition was there or not before with the old injectors. This is a process of elimination you will not owe for this portion but if we eliminate that it has anything to do with what my service dept did I will let you know so you can decide if you want to fix the concern. I am sorry it has taken so long a lot of the time has been spent testing and deciding which direction to go with the diagnosis."

Later, i asked him by email, what #8 compression had been, and what rpm the miss starts at with the accelerator. the next time i heard from him he said:

"THE MISS STARTS AT AROUND 1100 AND GOES TO AROUND 1400 OR SO THEN ITS NOT NOTICIBLE, IT’S ALSO NOT NOTICIBLE WHILE DRIVING AT ANY RPMS. OH BY THE WAY

WHILE SEARCHING FOR MORE INFO MY TECH NOTICED THERES AN OPEN RECALL ON YOUR VEHICLE THAT WE ARE GOING TO PERFORM WHILE ITS HERE. THE COMPRESSION RATIO FOR THE #8 CYLINDER IS 400 PSI BUT YOU DON’T GO TOTALLY BY AN INDIVIDUAL CYLINDER YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL CYLINDERS BECAUSE THE DIFFERENCE IN THE COMP RATIOS IS WHAT DETERMINES BALANCE OR SMOOTH IDLE OR REV. THE COMP RATIOS ARE AS FOLLOWS; #1 400, 2 400, 3 375, 4 375, 5 400, 6 380, 7 400, 8 400. NOTICE THAT CYLINDER NUMBER THREE AND FOUR ARE BOTH DOWN. MY TECH MENTIONED THAT THESE CYLINDERS ARE REALLY SUSCEPTIBLE TO A CONDITION CALLED DUSTING. DUSTING IS WHEN THERE IS DIRT THAT BY PASSES THE AIR FILTER FROM THE AIR BOX, THIS CAN HAPPEN WHEN THE AIR FILTER IS NOT MAINTENANCED CORRECTLY OR IF IN YOU CASE YOU USE A K&N AIR FILTER THAT DOES NOT SEAL AS WELL AS THE FACTORY FILTER. IN FACT FORD WONT WARRANTY ANY UNIT FOR ENGINE DAMAGE IF IT HAS AN AFTERMARKET HIGH FLOW AIR FILTER ON IT. YOUR AIR INTAKE TUBE IS VERY CLEAN LIKE SOMEONE HAS RECENTLY CLEANED THE ENTIRE TUBE, THIS IS VERY UNUSUAL FOR IT TO BE SO CLEAN YOUR AIR FILTER IS VERY DIRTY AND THAT MAKES THE CLEAN INTAKE TUBE EVEN THAT MUCH MORE UNUSUAL. AT THIS POINT I HAVE 17 HOURS OF DIAG AND RESEARCH IN IT AND HAVE NOTHING MORE THAN THE COMPRESSION RATIOS TO SAY IS THE PROBLEM. ANOTHER TEST THAT WE PERFORMED IN OUR DIAG WAS A CYLINDER CORTRIBUTION TEST AND INJECTOR INTERUPT TEST AND THE RESULTS WERE THAT THOSE CYLINDERS WITH THE LOW COMPRESSION WERE OF COURSE CONTRIBUTING LESS POWER. AT THIS POINT I DON’T HAVE ANY MORE THAT I CAN DO TO FIX THE ROUGH IDLE CONCERN SINCE THE COMPRESSION IS SUCH A FACTOR IN THE PERFORMANCE OF THE ENGINE."

So it is starting to sound like, nearly $4,400 dollars downstream, that I will have to fix this problem myself.

ANY information as to where to start looking will be appreciated/needed next week when I go to pick the truck up.

Thank you in advance.

DaveBen · 01-14-2012, 07:29 PM

200K miles is not the end of the world, but you can see it from here. The K&N Filter is no good, as you have just found out. I have been telling people here to get rid of K&N for years. They DO NOT filter very well, which is to be expected from a "performance Air Filter". They let small particles through and into the motor, causing wear to the rings. This might explain the low compression. Tough call. Good Luck.

Dave

Dogman · 01-14-2012, 07:50 PM

THE COMP RATIOS ARE AS FOLLOWS; #1 400, 2 400, 3 375, 4 375, 5 400, 6 380, 7 400, 8 400.
This is not uncommon, but still this is not that bad and the skip would be there all threw out the RPM range. I think you need to look for another diesel shop. I would look closer at the push rods, and lifters it would not take much it find out. Pull the push rods and roll it across a table.

DaveBen · 01-14-2012, 08:31 PM

Dogman is right. Time to take the beast in your hands and do your thing. Checking the push rods isn't hard. Same with the rockers. Then tell us what you find.

Dave

Tbar · 01-15-2012, 08:40 AM

UVC wire harness.........???

Tbar

DaveBen · 01-15-2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tbar

OHVC wire harness.........???

Tbar

I think you mean UVC harness (Under Valve Cover). OHVC = Over Head Valve Cover???

Dave

ninteyeight.5 · 01-15-2012, 09:54 AM

..."UVC wire harness.........???"...

what is that? i know nothing about the engine operating systems, as i have not had to do anything to it up to this point except a recall replacement of the cam sensor.

the lower compression #'s are what they are. but i doubt this is the problem as they shouldn't change dramatically in just one week. the afternoon i took the truck in, i let it warm up with about 5 minutes @ 1,300 rpm with the idle control box, and no missing/stumbling happened. it had been plugged in for a couple of hours prior, as it had been sub-freezing the night before if i recall correctly. as a 14 year veteran of alaska, this a drill i have used whenever possible since the truck was new.

if forced to guess, i'd think the problem is a bad sensor, a poor electrical connector. likely an electronic glitch--something that could change that quickly.

thanks much for the input so far.

Dogman · 01-15-2012, 07:24 PM

UVC wire harness. I forgot about that. Dorman has a update UVC wire harness for the 7.3. My under standing is it's better then ford OEM harness.

JLDickmon · 01-16-2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninteyeight.5

..."UVC wire harness.........???"...

what is that? i know nothing about the engine operating systems, as i have not had to do anything to it up to this point except a recall replacement of the cam sensor.

the lower compression #'s are what they are. but i doubt this is the problem as they shouldn't change dramatically in just one week. the afternoon i took the truck in, i let it warm up with about 5 minutes @ 1,300 rpm with the idle control box, and no missing/stumbling happened. it had been plugged in for a couple of hours prior, as it had been sub-freezing the night before if i recall correctly. as a 14 year veteran of alaska, this a drill i have used whenever possible since the truck was new.

if forced to guess, i'd think the problem is a bad sensor, a poor electrical connector. likely an electronic glitch--something that could change that quickly.

thanks much for the input so far.

the wiring for the injectors and the glow plugs runs through the valve cover gasket itself.

what's under the valve cover, is then known as the "under valve cover harness"

and they're prone to breaking clips..

NJFPappas · 02-02-2012, 09:46 PM

Any updates? Is she running, have you torn it apart? Whats going on with it?

01-14-2012, 07:29 PM	#2
DaveBen SDD Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ukiah, California Posts: 7,869 Thanks: 127 Thanked 506 Times in 489 Posts	200K miles is not the end of the world, but you can see it from here. The K&N Filter is no good, as you have just found out. I have been telling people here to get rid of K&N for years. They DO NOT filter very well, which is to be expected from a "performance Air Filter". They let small particles through and into the motor, causing wear to the rings. This might explain the low compression. Tough call. Good Luck. Dave __________________ 2004 F-350 Regular cab with 6.0, Torqshift, 4X4, and just about all of the rest of the options. I added Guages, Satellite Radio, Air Horns, and a coolant filter. Bilstein shocks. Battery Desulphater that really works. Installed Jimmi Jammers. Pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/user/dbennett48 Completely Stock. I had a Detroit Diesel 8V92TA in a KW dump truck in 1980. That sucker would put out 425 hp but would never out pull a CAT.

01-14-2012, 07:50 PM	#3
Dogman Dogman Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: tampa,FL Posts: 1,336 Thanks: 2 Thanked 104 Times in 90 Posts	THE COMP RATIOS ARE AS FOLLOWS; #1 400, 2 400, 3 375, 4 375, 5 400, 6 380, 7 400, 8 400. This is not uncommon, but still this is not that bad and the skip would be there all threw out the RPM range. I think you need to look for another diesel shop. I would look closer at the push rods, and lifters it would not take much it find out. Pull the push rods and roll it across a table. __________________ 2008 F-250 All stock so far...LOL 1999 Jeep TJ play toy on 32" tires custom bumpers by me Last edited by Dogman; 01-14-2012 at 07:51 PM.

01-14-2012, 08:31 PM	#4
DaveBen SDD Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ukiah, California Posts: 7,869 Thanks: 127 Thanked 506 Times in 489 Posts	Dogman is right. Time to take the beast in your hands and do your thing. Checking the push rods isn't hard. Same with the rockers. Then tell us what you find. Dave __________________ 2004 F-350 Regular cab with 6.0, Torqshift, 4X4, and just about all of the rest of the options. I added Guages, Satellite Radio, Air Horns, and a coolant filter. Bilstein shocks. Battery Desulphater that really works. Installed Jimmi Jammers. Pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/user/dbennett48 Completely Stock. I had a Detroit Diesel 8V92TA in a KW dump truck in 1980. That sucker would put out 425 hp but would never out pull a CAT.

01-15-2012, 08:40 AM	#5
Tbar SDD STAFF/Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 2,554 Thanks: 6 Thanked 36 Times in 36 Posts View Photos By: Tbar	UVC wire harness.........??? Tbar __________________ 2012 F250 CC 4X4 Lariiat NORTHTEXASPOWERSTROKES.com

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01-14-2012, 05:00 PM	#1
ninteyeight.5 SDD Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: tejas Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	help my truck please!!! Please note that the extended time frame this happens in is largely due to my not being able to go to the dealership except for Fridays. My work schedule is 4X10, so only that day is free when they are open. The recent switch to emails has been due to being out of town, so this also should not be construed as a long time taken on their part. I took my truck [1998 1/2 - 7.3L Powerstroke - F 350] in December 16, 2011 to have all the injectors and glow plugs replaced. I told the service writer that it had trouble starting at work a few evenings before when the temperature had gotten near freezing, even with the glow plugs. I also told him the mileage had been falling off lately and with the advanced mileage [198K] replacing them should hold me over to the reasonable life expectancy of the engine. As arranged beforehand, I went in to pick it up the following Friday[12/23/2011]. When I went into the yard to start it with the temperature about 45F that day, it still didn't want to start at first. when it did start, there was a noticeable miss at idle. Then I ran the idle up to 1300rpm on the engine idle control box, to see if it would smooth out as it warmed up, but it didn't. I went back and after starting the engine again, showed the service writer the above since he had driven the truck into their yard when i brought the truck in. He said he could also feel the miss at that time, and wrote up a new work order. I was told they would call me when the problem was located. The following Tuesday, 12/27/2011 I called them around noon wondering why it was taking so long. I was told that #8 injector had issues, but they still couldn't find out why it did not readily start the Friday before. The man who I talked to said they would call back when they located the problem. After noon, I was called, and told the cold start problem was that the ICP was disconnected, and now with it reconnected, the cold start problem was fixed. He said that #8 injector would need replaced, and after checking that parts dept. had one in stock he called back saying that he would call me if it was ready that evening, or the next morning. On 12/28/2011 @ 2:30PM, I was called and told the injector was replaced, but the miss was still there. I was also told that they had gotten codes that the problem was a bent rocker arm OR a bent piston push rod OR a bent valve OR a bent rocker arm push rod...causing poor compression, and that to proceed I would be responsible for ALL of the costs of repair from here on out. After some major whining to FOMOCO, the dealership agreed to start locating what ever had gone wrong. The next time i talked to the service manager by email, he said: "Well to be honest I have done at my expense a lot more invasive diagnostics, low compression is one of the factors, and you have 3 cylinders at the maximum low compression levels, which is 25psi low the normal compression level is 400psi and you have three cylinders at 375psi. But this still does not explain the miss off idle, the vehicle while at idle does not quiver or miss but at the rpm you described (12-1300 rpm ) it does so now I have to my tech to put the old injectors back in the unit to verify that the condition was there or not before with the old injectors. This is a process of elimination you will not owe for this portion but if we eliminate that it has anything to do with what my service dept did I will let you know so you can decide if you want to fix the concern. I am sorry it has taken so long a lot of the time has been spent testing and deciding which direction to go with the diagnosis." Later, i asked him by email, what #8 compression had been, and what rpm the miss starts at with the accelerator. the next time i heard from him he said: "THE MISS STARTS AT AROUND 1100 AND GOES TO AROUND 1400 OR SO THEN ITS NOT NOTICIBLE, IT’S ALSO NOT NOTICIBLE WHILE DRIVING AT ANY RPMS. OH BY THE WAY WHILE SEARCHING FOR MORE INFO MY TECH NOTICED THERES AN OPEN RECALL ON YOUR VEHICLE THAT WE ARE GOING TO PERFORM WHILE ITS HERE. THE COMPRESSION RATIO FOR THE #8 CYLINDER IS 400 PSI BUT YOU DON’T GO TOTALLY BY AN INDIVIDUAL CYLINDER YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL CYLINDERS BECAUSE THE DIFFERENCE IN THE COMP RATIOS IS WHAT DETERMINES BALANCE OR SMOOTH IDLE OR REV. THE COMP RATIOS ARE AS FOLLOWS; #1 400, 2 400, 3 375, 4 375, 5 400, 6 380, 7 400, 8 400. NOTICE THAT CYLINDER NUMBER THREE AND FOUR ARE BOTH DOWN. MY TECH MENTIONED THAT THESE CYLINDERS ARE REALLY SUSCEPTIBLE TO A CONDITION CALLED DUSTING. DUSTING IS WHEN THERE IS DIRT THAT BY PASSES THE AIR FILTER FROM THE AIR BOX, THIS CAN HAPPEN WHEN THE AIR FILTER IS NOT MAINTENANCED CORRECTLY OR IF IN YOU CASE YOU USE A K&N AIR FILTER THAT DOES NOT SEAL AS WELL AS THE FACTORY FILTER. IN FACT FORD WONT WARRANTY ANY UNIT FOR ENGINE DAMAGE IF IT HAS AN AFTERMARKET HIGH FLOW AIR FILTER ON IT. YOUR AIR INTAKE TUBE IS VERY CLEAN LIKE SOMEONE HAS RECENTLY CLEANED THE ENTIRE TUBE, THIS IS VERY UNUSUAL FOR IT TO BE SO CLEAN YOUR AIR FILTER IS VERY DIRTY AND THAT MAKES THE CLEAN INTAKE TUBE EVEN THAT MUCH MORE UNUSUAL. AT THIS POINT I HAVE 17 HOURS OF DIAG AND RESEARCH IN IT AND HAVE NOTHING MORE THAN THE COMPRESSION RATIOS TO SAY IS THE PROBLEM. ANOTHER TEST THAT WE PERFORMED IN OUR DIAG WAS A CYLINDER CORTRIBUTION TEST AND INJECTOR INTERUPT TEST AND THE RESULTS WERE THAT THOSE CYLINDERS WITH THE LOW COMPRESSION WERE OF COURSE CONTRIBUTING LESS POWER. AT THIS POINT I DON’T HAVE ANY MORE THAT I CAN DO TO FIX THE ROUGH IDLE CONCERN SINCE THE COMPRESSION IS SUCH A FACTOR IN THE PERFORMANCE OF THE ENGINE." So it is starting to sound like, nearly $4,400 dollars downstream, that I will have to fix this problem myself. ANY information as to where to start looking will be appreciated/needed next week when I go to pick the truck up. Thank you in advance.

01-15-2012, 09:54 AM	#7
ninteyeight.5 SDD Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: tejas Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	..."UVC wire harness.........???"... what is that? i know nothing about the engine operating systems, as i have not had to do anything to it up to this point except a recall replacement of the cam sensor. the lower compression #'s are what they are. but i doubt this is the problem as they shouldn't change dramatically in just one week. the afternoon i took the truck in, i let it warm up with about 5 minutes @ 1,300 rpm with the idle control box, and no missing/stumbling happened. it had been plugged in for a couple of hours prior, as it had been sub-freezing the night before if i recall correctly. as a 14 year veteran of alaska, this a drill i have used whenever possible since the truck was new. if forced to guess, i'd think the problem is a bad sensor, a poor electrical connector. likely an electronic glitch--something that could change that quickly. thanks much for the input so far.

01-15-2012, 07:24 PM	#8
Dogman Dogman Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: tampa,FL Posts: 1,336 Thanks: 2 Thanked 104 Times in 90 Posts	UVC wire harness. I forgot about that. Dorman has a update UVC wire harness for the 7.3. My under standing is it's better then ford OEM harness. __________________ 2008 F-250 All stock so far...LOL 1999 Jeep TJ play toy on 32" tires custom bumpers by me

02-02-2012, 09:46 PM	#10
NJFPappas SDD Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: San Diego Ca Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Any updates? Is she running, have you torn it apart? Whats going on with it?