Hydrogen generator?

Zookie400

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So, how does spending $50-100 on a bunch of parts, then spending a few hours tinkering with it to get it running, then getting no actual better fuel economy translate into saving money? :dunno

Ralph

people said rudolph diesel was wasting his time as well...

without making this a 20 page debate that has no REAL RESULTS.....on a 7.3 DIESEL: 5L OF HYDROGEN PER MINUTE = 3% THROTTLE @ 1500 RPMS (0psi boost).

you are correct, 5 lpm is a lot to be getting out of a generator, but the price of fuel isnt going down, so eventually a hydrogen generator that makes 1 lpm will be worth it. i am going to continue on my quest, and i will post results.

i have 2 busted up quads to take care of for the race this weekend, but then we have 4 weeks off so i plan on working on it and hopefully getting some numbers to share.

i am going to see if the PWM is actually worth the trouble. i want to see if it really cuts down on amperage, or if it does nothing but act as a "throttle" for the generator. i was going to try a trailer brake controller rather than make my own pwm...it has high frequency, and with the slider you can adjust the duty cycle. I am going to aim high with my generator....shooting for 5 LPM, and 20 or less amps. also i will be using ammonia. i think it can be done :stir
 

FordGuy100

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I'd like to see the calculation. Do you mean 5L/min of H2/O2 or 5L/min of just H2?

Ralph

I wouldnt mind injecting O2 into the mix, gives a more complete burn. Also...I really dont see anything wrong with putting water vapor into the mix as well, it would act as a low grade water injection system...hopefully keeping the EGT's down.

5L/min is going to be hard with those amps. We should try to find a source of pure Ammonia :D.
 

Zookie400

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5 lpm of Hydrogen would be the 3% throttle. when i build my generator, i wasnt going to seperate the gasses....oxygen is always good to have so why not pipe that in as well. for my generator i want a yield of 5 lpm of "browns gas" (or whatever else comes out the pipe!) so the actual volume of hydrogen would obviously be less than that.

ammonia is NH3, but there will be some amount of water in there depending what % ammonia i put in......commercial grade would be around 60% water wich is about as high as you can go without it boiling at room temp.

you seem very bothered by us experimenting with this.....why? its not your money we are "wasting".
 

ralphinnj

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I don't have a problem with the experimenting. My problem is when people don't understand what they are doing. I have an inherent dislike for incompetence, especially when it is repeatedly expressed.

5L/min is not enough based on very basic calculations that I have already shown. 5L/min is not even in the remote galaxy of what you would need. It will not produce 3% throttle. Again, please show the calculation for that.

The worst part of the whole debate is that the most critical element, that being that you can't get more energy out of the H2/O2 mixture than it took to create it in the 1st place, is totally over your head (and several others).

Do you and everyone understand that all you are doing is passing a current (the energy for which you take from the electrical system, which was generated from the mechanical energy you created by combusting the diesel fuel) over water, effecting electrolysis? It takes a certain amount of energy to dissociate the hydrogen and oxygen, and your electrical system provides that. Again, and I am not sure you are getting this, but where do you think your electrical system gets the energy to power the electrolysis reaction? It isn't coming out of thin air. It is coming from your engine and the source is combusting diesel. Ok, so you have a certain amount of energy that was used to make the 5L/min of brown gas (H2/O2 mix). Now you send it into the intake and it gets combusted. Back to water! So that enery you used to make it, which you took from the engine in the 1st place, is returned to the engine. All you are doing, in the very best scenario, is sending that energy through a cycle, but no "new" or additional energy is being created (to improve fuel economy, you would have to create energy in your scenario). In fact, because no process in the universe is 100% efficient, you are reducing fuel economy. Just the opposite of what you want to do. That means on top of all the time and money you have wasted on testing this idea, you will now have lower fuel economy, which means it will cost you more!

All I am trying to say is that this is a scam, and any real scientist will tell you the same thing. Go read a thermo book and learn the Conservation of Energy Theory. You will learn that other than nuclear reactions, which I hope you aren't dreaming is occurring, no new energy can be "created." In fact, the electrolysis cell gives off some heat, and also requires additional energy to do the phase change (to form a gas), so it is inherently inefficient.

The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely with the numbers cited below on the optimistic side. Some report 50–70% (Werner Zittel; Reinhold Wurster, 1996-07-08, Chapter 3: Production of Hydrogen, Part 4: Production from electricity by means of electrolysis), while the theoretical maximum efficiency of the electrolysis of water is between 80–94% (Bjørnar Kruse, Sondre Grinna, Cato Buch, 2002-02-13: Hydrogen-Status and Possibilities). These values refer only to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included. For instance, when considering a power plant that converts the heat of nuclear reactions into hydrogen via electrolysis, the total efficiency may be closer to 30–45% (Briefing Paper #73: Transport and the Hydrogen Economy, Uranium Information Centre's Briefing Papers,Australian Uranium Association, January 2008). In plain english, the paragraph just above this sentence means that the combustion energy you can recover from the hydrogen you collect will be less (pick any of the percentages above; I peg it at under 50%) than the energy you will need to put into it to make the hydrogen.

What does that mean if you add an electrolysis cell to your truck or car? It means that if you were getting, say, 16MPG before, running the cell may cost you a very small, call it 0.1MPG penalty. Now, you put that hydrogen back in and get 50% of your 0.1MPG back and so you net a 0.05MPG LOSS. Yeah, those are just wild guesses at the numbers, but that IS exactly what will happen.

I think people that want to engage this stuff should do some real research, and not just the online links, all of which are intended to get you to "go for it." They do not explain the science and the reason is because they can't. Not because they are incapable of doing so, but because the science would show everyone it is complete and utter BS. Go ahead, ask one of the experts that promote these products how more energy can be extracted than is put in. That is, exactly how does it make that guys diesel truck go from 13MPG to 26MPG (that is one of the advertisements). What a load of crap. And ALL of the rest are just different shaed of the same crap.

Go do your homework.

Ralph
 

Zookie400

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i agree with you that it is not ENERGY efficient. however....i am not convinced that the diesel fuel used to make the amperage, will be more than the saved fuel from piping in hydrogen. maybe it will :dunno

im going to experiment, with my internet link based reasearch and severe lack of competence :rolleyes: i think i can make it work. ;tu
 

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