JRJ04
Senior Member
I had the ISSPRO on my 7.3 (pyro, boost, and trans)...they worked flawlessly and looked great.
Which gauges to pick
- Thread starter rocketdog
- Start date
What is it about the Ford that you find to be "no good"?
Some people complain about the Ford tranmission temperature guage having a latency as well as a non-linear indication... ie, the needle only goes to hot when there is REALLY a problem, otherwise it just stays in the "normal" range.
If that is what is meant by no good, then is that a result of the guage signal being multiplexed into a controller... or is it a result of Ford intentionally damping the guage's accuracy to reduce warranty claims from unecessary dealership service visits by meticulously concerned customers? If the latter, then should the method be cursed by the intent?
Our accelerator pedals have been remotely "drive by wire" since early 1999. The entire constellation of sensors on the engine are connected by a remote PCM controller. When I eventually put my fuel pressure guage in, it will of course have a remote processor, since I don't want 60 psi of fuel routed into my cab. Nor do I want 3000 psi of high pressure oil routed into the cab. So I think SOME type of remote processing unit is necessary.
I'm not trying to argue... I'm just trying to better understand. Without understanding what specifically is meant by Ford's separate controller being no good, it is hard to make the connection that separate controllers would be any less accurate or less reliable then hard wired.
Given all scan tools and aftermarket programmers and bone stock powertrain control modules that process mountains of discrete data every millesecond that the engine needs and relies upon to run seem to work the same way... it's hard to see why it wouldn't work just as reliably, and as accurately, for guages?
I know I would enjoy the other benefits of the multiplexed guage system (freeze frame, point to point logging, downloadable data, safety in the cab, simplicity of wiring, fewer wires crammed in the A pillar, easy relocation of guages to match the way an individual would like to see certain parameters close to each other, etc etc), but if a case can be made to forego all these benefits, then I'd like to learn about it before I decide.
DaveBen
SDD Senior Member
Yes that is what I meant. I have always had gauges that showed exactly what is going on in the truck. None of this computer junk. What good do they do if they don't tell you exactly whats happening??
Dave
Dave
DaveBen
SDD Senior Member
Let me add to "on top of exactly whats happening" at that moment.
Dave
Dave
I'll just toss in that I've got the Performax for 3 or 4 years, and love 'em, using the color scheme you already mentioned in an earlier post to match the instrument panel. I put in the 3 you mentioned (pyro, boost, tranny) plus coolant temperature at the coolant filter inlet (only a few inches of line upstream to the water pump. I like this so I can see if I at least get around 150F in cold weather and short hops; if not I flip on the Aux idle control and leave it run if I am only going to be a way a few minutes.
This holiday, I added a 2 hole pod over the mirror, and put in a fuel gauge. With the wires already run, the whole install was about an hour to route the wires from the fuel bowl to the 'brain' nice and pretty (I had the bowl out for an overhaul so some of that time was watching for leaks and fiddling with the fuel pressure regulator too; and I got sidetracked eliminating rust in my battery tray that I lifted to route the wire...you know how that goes, 1 thing after another). Now, I can see that I *do* have fuel pressure high enough, and I also have a hole and can't decide (when the time and cash is right) if I should get hpop, engine oil temp, or something else!
One thing to know is they've recently improved the dimmer capability for the gauges. The originals are just too bright for my taste and been my only complaint. Last week, an engineer at ISSPRO offered to reprogram my gauges, replace the gauge faces so they all match (the new fuel gauge has slightly different, better, look) and reprogram the "brain" light schedule too. . . for cost of shipping. I'm doing it when I get back home next week. I'm impressed with their customer service! Nice folks.
Lastly, he told me that the pressure gauges are accurate to better than 2% or so of full scale, which is 100 psi on most of them, i.e. accurate to better than about 2psi. That is worst case. I don't have a simple way to check them, and the limitation is in the sensors they're using mostly, plus maybe the A/D converter in the brain (?). So for example my fuel pressure is showing 77 psi but it might be anywhere between 75 and 79. Don't know how that compares to Dave's analog ideal, and I don't know about boost either, come to think of it... In the end it is all about the sensor itself regardless of whether it's in the gauge or elsewhere IMO.
This holiday, I added a 2 hole pod over the mirror, and put in a fuel gauge. With the wires already run, the whole install was about an hour to route the wires from the fuel bowl to the 'brain' nice and pretty (I had the bowl out for an overhaul so some of that time was watching for leaks and fiddling with the fuel pressure regulator too; and I got sidetracked eliminating rust in my battery tray that I lifted to route the wire...you know how that goes, 1 thing after another). Now, I can see that I *do* have fuel pressure high enough, and I also have a hole and can't decide (when the time and cash is right) if I should get hpop, engine oil temp, or something else!
One thing to know is they've recently improved the dimmer capability for the gauges. The originals are just too bright for my taste and been my only complaint. Last week, an engineer at ISSPRO offered to reprogram my gauges, replace the gauge faces so they all match (the new fuel gauge has slightly different, better, look) and reprogram the "brain" light schedule too. . . for cost of shipping. I'm doing it when I get back home next week. I'm impressed with their customer service! Nice folks.
Lastly, he told me that the pressure gauges are accurate to better than 2% or so of full scale, which is 100 psi on most of them, i.e. accurate to better than about 2psi. That is worst case. I don't have a simple way to check them, and the limitation is in the sensors they're using mostly, plus maybe the A/D converter in the brain (?). So for example my fuel pressure is showing 77 psi but it might be anywhere between 75 and 79. Don't know how that compares to Dave's analog ideal, and I don't know about boost either, come to think of it... In the end it is all about the sensor itself regardless of whether it's in the gauge or elsewhere IMO.
DaveBen
SDD Senior Member
I don't KNOW the accuracy of the analog gauges, but I would hazard an guess of 5%.
Dave
Dave
DaveBen
SDD Senior Member
What I am trying to get across is that analog gauges are accurate and fast, right out of the box. They do not rely on any computer controller. The automotive industry has used them for 90 + years and they are always dependable. Now computer controlled gauges -or- Lie-O-Meters, are used because they are cheaper than analog gauges and they tell the customer what the Maker wants them to see. I am not pushing any maker's gauges over any others. That is your choice.
Dave
Dave
This seems to be evolving into an apples and oranges discussion.
I think I totally understand and fully agree what DaveBen is trying to say about the fundamental purpose of a good guage: to report accurate and actual measurements as they are dynamically changing in real time.
But I still don't think I understand how a "hard wired" or "analogue" guage is the only way, or the best way, to get real time accurate measurements.
The individual guages I installed over 10 years ago are not networked into a central processor like the Performax. I guess they are individual "old fashioned" guages. But I'm not sure that means they are hard wired, or analogue, either... and I'm the one who wired them!
We can break down what DaveBen is trying to get across about a good gauge into two steps:
1. Measure accurately. (in real time)
2. Tell us the measurement. (in real time)
Does it matter how those two steps get done, just so long as they get done?
On the three guages I installed, it appeared to me as though Step 1 was done by the "Probe / Sending Unit" which was attached directly (hard wired?) to the object being measured. Amd Step 2 was done by the "Guage Face" ...as that'd be the only way I could see the results from Step 1.
In looking at and handling my Sending Unit / Probes, it appeared to me that these devices converted a measurement of heat into a low voltage signal (Step 1), and then sent that low voltage signal electrically to the Guage Face to be processed and converted into needle movement so that I could see it (Step 2).
It did NOT appear to me as if they conducted all the heat they measured along that wire. The wire wasn't thick enough to handle that kind of heat, nor was it protective enough to keep the heat from dissapating somewhat before it reached the guage face.
So it seems to me that even with individual guages, there is some "signal processing" going on. The sending unit is processing measurements into an electronic value that the guage face module can then process and convert into needle movement that I can read. Since electricity travels at the speed of light, this processing essentially occurs in real time.
Instead of each guage head having it's own individual RE-interpretor of electrical signals that themselves are only the already converted signals from measurements taken by the sending units... why not send the signals from the sending units to a more capable central processor? What difference might it make if the processing to do Step 2 (telling me) takes place inside the guage head itself, or inside this central processor? It doesn't seem that either one gets as hot as the thing measured... since either one is still only receiving the electrical signals from sending units that took the heat and already converted the measurements into those signals.
Would the accuracy of Step 1 be effected by how Step 2 gets done? It doesn't seem so, if the goal of the processing of Step 2 is to report Step 1.
In the case of Ford's transmission temperature guage, that was NOT the goal, according to Mark Kovalsky, a popular car and truck forum citizen and forum moderator on some diesel truck sites whose previous career included a long tenure at Ford Motor Company working on the very automatic transmission (5R110W) that Ford's guage was developed to measure. Mark reported that this guage was intentionally "damped". In otherwords, the Step 2 function was made to respond differently (slower, and averaged, on purpose) than the real time reporting we all here agree that we prefer.
So the inaccuracy of Ford's transmission guage isn't the result of a centrally processed guage... it is the result of Ford's engineering design choice. From this example, it doesn't make sense to throw the baby out with the bath water and conclude that a more capable central processor is not as accurate as a similar type of processor located inside an individual guage head.
Thinking about automotive guages from 90+ years gone by, I was reminded of when I had to take the dashboard apart of my previous Ford pick up... a 1979. The design of that truck's guage cluster is almost 40 years old now, given the '73-'79 F-Series was designed prior to 1972. I had Ford's full gauge package in my Lariat F-250 Ranger XLT. Instead of idiot lights in all the little rectangles, there were factory guages. With the intrument cluster removed, I found that all of the guages were backed by a printed circuit piece of plastic, similar to a flexible motherboard (only the circuit traces were a Neandertholic 1/16" wide!). Even back then!
I think I totally understand and fully agree what DaveBen is trying to say about the fundamental purpose of a good guage: to report accurate and actual measurements as they are dynamically changing in real time.
But I still don't think I understand how a "hard wired" or "analogue" guage is the only way, or the best way, to get real time accurate measurements.
The individual guages I installed over 10 years ago are not networked into a central processor like the Performax. I guess they are individual "old fashioned" guages. But I'm not sure that means they are hard wired, or analogue, either... and I'm the one who wired them!
We can break down what DaveBen is trying to get across about a good gauge into two steps:
1. Measure accurately. (in real time)
2. Tell us the measurement. (in real time)
Does it matter how those two steps get done, just so long as they get done?
On the three guages I installed, it appeared to me as though Step 1 was done by the "Probe / Sending Unit" which was attached directly (hard wired?) to the object being measured. Amd Step 2 was done by the "Guage Face" ...as that'd be the only way I could see the results from Step 1.
In looking at and handling my Sending Unit / Probes, it appeared to me that these devices converted a measurement of heat into a low voltage signal (Step 1), and then sent that low voltage signal electrically to the Guage Face to be processed and converted into needle movement so that I could see it (Step 2).
It did NOT appear to me as if they conducted all the heat they measured along that wire. The wire wasn't thick enough to handle that kind of heat, nor was it protective enough to keep the heat from dissapating somewhat before it reached the guage face.
So it seems to me that even with individual guages, there is some "signal processing" going on. The sending unit is processing measurements into an electronic value that the guage face module can then process and convert into needle movement that I can read. Since electricity travels at the speed of light, this processing essentially occurs in real time.
Instead of each guage head having it's own individual RE-interpretor of electrical signals that themselves are only the already converted signals from measurements taken by the sending units... why not send the signals from the sending units to a more capable central processor? What difference might it make if the processing to do Step 2 (telling me) takes place inside the guage head itself, or inside this central processor? It doesn't seem that either one gets as hot as the thing measured... since either one is still only receiving the electrical signals from sending units that took the heat and already converted the measurements into those signals.
Would the accuracy of Step 1 be effected by how Step 2 gets done? It doesn't seem so, if the goal of the processing of Step 2 is to report Step 1.
In the case of Ford's transmission temperature guage, that was NOT the goal, according to Mark Kovalsky, a popular car and truck forum citizen and forum moderator on some diesel truck sites whose previous career included a long tenure at Ford Motor Company working on the very automatic transmission (5R110W) that Ford's guage was developed to measure. Mark reported that this guage was intentionally "damped". In otherwords, the Step 2 function was made to respond differently (slower, and averaged, on purpose) than the real time reporting we all here agree that we prefer.
So the inaccuracy of Ford's transmission guage isn't the result of a centrally processed guage... it is the result of Ford's engineering design choice. From this example, it doesn't make sense to throw the baby out with the bath water and conclude that a more capable central processor is not as accurate as a similar type of processor located inside an individual guage head.
Thinking about automotive guages from 90+ years gone by, I was reminded of when I had to take the dashboard apart of my previous Ford pick up... a 1979. The design of that truck's guage cluster is almost 40 years old now, given the '73-'79 F-Series was designed prior to 1972. I had Ford's full gauge package in my Lariat F-250 Ranger XLT. Instead of idiot lights in all the little rectangles, there were factory guages. With the intrument cluster removed, I found that all of the guages were backed by a printed circuit piece of plastic, similar to a flexible motherboard (only the circuit traces were a Neandertholic 1/16" wide!). Even back then!
Y2KW57 ?
This Analog or Electronically processed gauge thing.. seems to pop up here every now'n then.
A Mine'z Bedder'n Yers kinda thing. There Ain't No Winner.
Alota us "ol guyz", (like Me) like Temps & Pressures from a Thermocouple and Tubing... read from a needle, on a Scale.
Some like to read Digital stuff, processed from Electronic Values & Wizardry. Some like to read everything on a cluster, or a screen. Some like a "Rack" of gauges located so they can all be scanned.. as we drive (Me).
BUT.. The Big 3.. Generic OEM gauges, IMO, Do leave alot to be desired.... Theze Dayz.. as compared to "Back In The Day". They're designed to read somewhere between the N and L, in NORMAL.. but remain right about the R.
Just my think'n but..... For the average "Consumer".. The Big 3.. wants it that way. IF a gauge moved.. with loads and demands, the dealer shops would be FULL of, Worried "Consumers".
Us Motor Heads.. want real time Readings and/or Data... so we can compensate accordingly. The OEM, So Called.. Gauges, tend to Peg.. when it's To Late. (I've seen them PEG.. and stay pegged.. even after a cool down) (You can get them "Reset" though, Not Good.. for me, anywayz)
Digital ? Analog ? Aftermarket gauges ? It's whatever Trips yer trigger.
Jus' my .03
This Analog or Electronically processed gauge thing.. seems to pop up here every now'n then. A Mine'z Bedder'n Yers kinda thing. There Ain't No Winner.
Alota us "ol guyz", (like Me
) like Temps & Pressures from a Thermocouple and Tubing... read from a needle, on a Scale.Some like to read Digital stuff, processed from Electronic Values & Wizardry. Some like to read everything on a cluster, or a screen. Some like a "Rack" of gauges located so they can all be scanned.. as we drive (Me).
BUT.. The Big 3.. Generic OEM gauges, IMO, Do leave alot to be desired.... Theze Dayz.. as compared to "Back In The Day". They're designed to read somewhere between the N and L, in NORMAL.. but remain right about the R.
Just my think'n but..... For the average "Consumer".. The Big 3.. wants it that way. IF a gauge moved.. with loads and demands, the dealer shops would be FULL of, Worried "Consumers".
Us Motor Heads.. want real time Readings and/or Data... so we can compensate accordingly. The OEM, So Called.. Gauges, tend to Peg.. when it's To Late. (I've seen them PEG.. and stay pegged.. even after a cool down) (You can get them "Reset" though
, Not Good.. for me, anywayz)Digital ? Analog ? Aftermarket gauges ? It's whatever Trips yer trigger.
Jus' my .03
DaveBen
SDD Senior Member
That is a good explanation, for our point of view, Joe. 
Dave
Dave