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atk

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A Point To Ponder ??

Hmmm..Maybe some of the [older engine] fuel pumps are going south because of the lack of lubrication from ULSD ?

Hmmm.. would some B-?, or some 2 cycle oil with TCW3 in it be a "Good Thing" ? Hmmm ......

jus sum Turkey Day Brain Candy.





(I'm 140K into the OEM (shimmed) fuel pump... used Diesel Kleen from the Git Go, and now.. Super Tech 2cycle w/TCW3.. Hmmm)


that is the question of the day????????

both my fuel pumps have malfunctioned in the cooler weather(one last week and the other last Christmas). i have been using the same fuel(B5-B20 depending on the time of year)for about a 1.5 years. the only thing that was diifferent this time i had some 2 stroke oil in with the fuel....

i may have a theory but going to do some more research first....-popcorn
 

BIG JOE

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that is the question of the day????????

both my fuel pumps have malfunctioned in the cooler weather(one last week and the other last Christmas). i have been using the same fuel(B5-B20 depending on the time of year)for about a 1.5 years. the only thing that was diifferent this time i had some 2 stroke oil in with the fuel....

i may have a theory but going to do some more research first....-popcorn

Good Point Alex ;tu, my reply was just for something to ponder. Not pointed toward Your pump issues. Hope you get them figured out soon. Let us know what you come up with ?

Joe
 
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kenholl

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I haven't had any fuel pump issues whatsoever since I started the TCW3/DieselKleen additive blend 1-year ago. I have to concede though, that Dallas winters are not Ontario winters!

However, I can't concieve how this slim ratio would affect something like a pump. My instinct (without intimate knowledge) is that Alex's failure was coincidental.

Alex, be sure to get back with the results of your theory!
 

dpantazis

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atk-

i think your fuel pump issues are unrelated to the oil additive use. i would be more concerned with gelling and sucking air. i don;t know if the 6.0's had similar fuel pump pick ups with 7.3's.

if i don't get bio, i add to D2. as far as dosage goes, i have been using 20 oz vitamin water bottles to repackage the tcw3. they are of a heavier plastic and cap. nice BIG mouth. the oil does not seem to affect them. 1 bottle per tank fill up. they fit into the filler neck fine. gatorpiss bottles are my second choice.

EDIT: i did some internet 'research' on WalMart TCW3 a while ago. this page- Is the wal-mart brand Supertec TCW 3 a good brand of oil to use. - iboats Boating Forums

from 2002, "Bass and Walleye Boats magazine did an oil test 2 years ago and found that the Walmart oil had the same formula as the Exxon Superflo, which was different than the Pennzoil. Chances are Wallmart buys from the lowest bidder, no matter what make."

lowest bidder rings true!

dp
 

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I pour in the 2 stroke upto the 28oz. line and then fill up to the next line with the cetane additive.

Bama- why are you doing this? What is your goal? Some facts to consider-

1. TCW3 is a lubricant.

2. cetane boosters are basically solvents. they LOWER the BTU's of the fuel, and you WILL get lower mpg's. just like winter fuels vs summer fuels.

oil + solvent => nothing!

Why are you adding cetane booster anyhow? down there in LA, you should not have any issues.

add one OR the other, not both. it might make you feel good, but you are not accomplishing anything by doing it.

the chevy guys Lubricity Additive Study Results summary from a year ago-
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place

this shows the results of comparing different additives with a standard test. straight B2 is no 1, Optilube (good stuff by all accounts) is 2-4, TCW3 is sample no 7.

Running straight B2 was the best by all accounts. Optilube stuff was next best, TCW3 was up there. curiously, they ran a test if adding used motor oil- results were WORSE than straight fuel!

look at this dodge guy's page-
Failure Facts
highlights-

The 2 cycle oil concept was developed for LSD (Low Sulfur Diesel) designed trucks. (Pre 2007 model year)

DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A ULSD DESIGNED VEHICLE! THIS MEANS 2007+ MODEL YEARS.
DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A DPF!

SUGGESTED NOT USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A CAT! - jury is still out on this one. i think you would want to run this a little leaner anyhow, like 200:1.

dosage ratios are optimal at 200:1 but can be as high as 100:1. don;t go over 100:1.

red 6.0 no- MN has mandate that ALL OTR diesel is B2 right? you might want to reconsider you dosage and additives.

dp
 

no-red 6 0

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YES, state law iirc.

uumm we have a few corn farmers up here............

dosage and additives?? to what/how much?

PLEASE enlighten me
dan
 

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Diesel Place Lub study

"The following are the preliminary results of a research study on diesel fuel Lubricity Additives. There is likely to be further commentary and explanation added at a future time.

PURPOSE:

The purpose of this research was to determine the ability of multiple diesel fuel additives to replace the vital lubricity component in ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel) fuel.

HISTORY:

ULSD fuel is the fuel currently mandated for use in all on road diesel engines. This fuel burns cleaner and is less polluting than it’s predecessor, called Low Sulfer Diesel Fuel. Low sulfer fuel contained less than 500 ppm of sulfer. ULSD contains 15 ppm or less.
As diesel fuel is further refined to remove the polluting sulfer, it is inadvertently stripped of its lubricating properties. This vital lubrication is a necessary component of the diesel fuel as it prevents wear in the fuel delivery system. Specifically, it lubricates pumps, high pressure pumps and injectors. Traditional Low sulfer diesel fuel typically contained enough lubricating ability to suffice the needs of these vital components. ULSD fuel, on the other hand, is considered to be very “dry” and incapable of lubricating vital fuel delivery components. As a result, these components are at risk of premature and even catastrophic failure when ULSD fuel is introduced to the system. As a result, all oil companies producing ULSD fuel must replace the lost lubricity with additives. All ULSD fuel purchased at retail fuel stations SHOULD be adequately treated with additives to replace this lost lubricity. The potential result of using inadequately treated fuel, as indicated above, can be catastrophic. There have been many documented cases of randomly tested samples of diesel fuel. These tests prove that often times the fuel we purchase is not adequately treated and may therefore contribute to accelerated wear of our fuel delivery systems. For this reason it may be prudent to use an after market diesel fuel additive to ENSURE adequate lubrication of the fuel delivery system. Additionally, many additives can offer added benefits such as cetane improver, and water separators or emulsifiers.

CONTENT:

In this study we will test multiple diesel fuel additives designed to replace lost lubricity. The primary component of this study is a side-by-side laboratory analysis of each additive’s ability to replace this vital lubricity. Additionally, claims of improving cetane, water separation or emulsification, bio-diesel compatibility and alcohol content will be noted. These notes were derived from information that was readily available to consumers (via the label and internet information) and none of this information has been evaluated for validity and/or performance. Cetane information has only been noted if the word “cetane” was used in the advertising information. The words “improves power” has not been translated to mean “improves cetane” in this evaluation. Information on alcohol content is provided by indicating “contains no alcohol”. Omission of the words “contains no alcohol” does not imply that it does contain alcohol. This information was simply missing in the information available to a consumer. However, the possibility of a form of alcohol in these products is possible. Additionally, information on dosages and cost per tankful are included for comparison purposes.

How Diesel Fuel Is Evaluated For Lubricating Ability:

Diesel fuel and other fluids are tested for lubricating ability using a device called a “High Frequency Reciprocating Rig” or HFRR. The HFRR is currently the Internationally accepted, standardized method to evaluate fluids for lubricating ability. It uses a ball bearing that reciprocates or moves back and forth on a metal surface at a very high frequency for a duration of 90 minutes. The machine does this while the ball bearing and metal surface are immersed in the test fluid (in this case, treated diesel fuel). At the end of the test the ball bearing is examined under a microscope and the “wear scar” on the ball bearing is measured in microns. The larger the wear scar, the poorer the lubricating ability of the fluid. Southwest Research runs every sample twice and averages the size of the wear scar.
The U.S. standard for diesel fuel says a commercially available diesel fuel should produce a wear scar of no greater than 520 microns. The Engine Manufacturers Association had requested a standard of a wear scar no greater than 460 microns, typical of the pre-ULSD fuels. Most experts agree that a 520 micron standard is adequate, but also that the lower the wear scar the better.

METHOD:

An independent research firm in Texas was hired to do the laboratory work. The cost of the research was paid for voluntarily by the participating additive manufacturers. Declining to participate and pay for the research were the following companies: Amsoil and Power Service. Because these are popular products it was determined that they needed to be included in the study. These products were tested using funds collected by diesel enthusiasts at “dieselplace.com”. Additionally, unconventional additives such as 2-cycle oil and used motor oil were tested for their abilities to aid in diesel fuel lubricity. These were also paid for by members of “dieselplace.com”.
The study was conducted in the following manner:
-The Research firm obtained a quantity of “untreated” ULSD fuel from a supplier. This fuel was basic ULSD fuel intended for use in diesel engines. However, this sample was acquired PRIOR to any attempt to additize the fuel for the purpose of replacing lost lubricity. In other words, it was a “worst case scenario, very dry diesel fuel” that would likely cause damage to any fuel delivery system. This fuel was tested using the HFRR at the Southwest Research Laboratory. This fuel was determined to have a very high HFRR score of 636 microns, typical of an untreated ULSD fuel. It was determined that this batch of fuel would be utilized as the baseline fuel for testing all of the additives. The baseline fuel HFRR score of 636 would be used as the control sample. All additives tested would be evaluated on their ability to replace lost lubricity to the fuel by comparing their scores to the control sample. Any score under 636 shows improvement to the fuels ability to lubricate the fuel delivery system of a diesel engine.

BLIND STUDY:

In order to ensure a completely unbiased approach to the study, the following steps were taken:
Each additive tested was obtained independently via internet or over the counter purchases. The only exceptions were Opti-Lube XPD and the bio-diesel sample. The reason for this is because Opti-Lube XPD additive was considered “experimental” at the time of test enrollment and was not yet on the market. It was sent directly from Opti-Lube company. The bio-diesel sample was sponsored by Renewable Energy Group. One of their suppliers, E.H. Wolf and Sons in Slinger, Wisconsin supplied us with a sample of 100% soybean based bio-diesel. This sample was used to blend with the baseline fuel to create a 2% bio-diesel for testing.
Each additive was bottled separately in identical glass containers. The bottles were labeled only with a number. This number corresponded to the additive contained in the bottle. The order of numbering was done randomly by drawing names out of a hat. Only Spicer Research held the key to the additives in each bottle.
The additive samples were then sent in a box to An independent research firm. The only information given them was the ratio of fuel to be added to each additive sample. For example, bottle “A” needs to be mixed at a ratio of “480-1”. The ratio used for each additive was the “prescribed dosage” found on the bottle label for that product. Used motor oil and 2-cycle oil were tested at a rationally chosen ratio of 200:1.
The Research Laboratory mixed the proper ratio of each “bottled fluid” into a separate container containing the baseline fuel. The data, therefore, is meaningful because every additive is tested in the same way using the same fuel. A side-by-side comparison of the effectiveness of each additive is now obtainable.

THE RESULTS:

These results are listed in the order of performance in the HFRR test. The baseline fuel used in every test started at an HFRR score of 636. The score shown is the tested HFRR score of the baseline fuel/additive blend.
Also included is the wear scar improvement provided by the additive as well as other claimed benefits of the additive. Each additive is also categorized as a Multi-purpose additive, Multi-purpose + anti-gel, Lubricity only, non-conventional, or as an additive capable of treating both gasoline and diesel fuel.
As a convenience to the reader there is also information on price per treated tank of diesel fuel (using a 26 gallon tank), and dosage per 26 gallon tank provided as “ounces of additive per 26 gallon tank”.

In Order Of Performance:

1) 2% REG SoyPower biodiesel
HFRR 221, 415 micron improvement.
50:1 ratio of baseline fuel to 100% biodiesel
66.56 oz. of 100% biodiesel per 26 gallons of diesel fuel
Price: market value

2)Opti-Lube XPD
Multi-purpose + anti-gel
cetane improver, demulsifier
HFRR 317, 319 micron improvement.
256:1 ratio
13 oz/tank
$4.35/tank

3)FPPF RV, Bus, SUV Diesel/Gas fuel treatment
Gas and Diesel
cetane improver, emulsifier
HFRR 439, 197 micron improvement
640:1 ratio
5.2 oz/tank
$2.60/tank

4)Opti-Lube Summer Blend
Multi-purpose
demulsifier
HFRR 447, 189 micron improvement
3000:1 ratio
1.11 oz/tank
$0.68/tank

5)Opti-Lube Winter Blend
Muti-purpose + anti-gel
cetane improver
HFRR 461, 175 micron improvement
512:1 ratio
6.5 oz/tank
$3.65/tank

6)Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000
Multi-purpose + anti-gel
cetane improver, emulsifier, bio-diesel compatible
HFRR 470, 166 micron improvement
1000:1 ratio
3.32 oz/tank
$1.87/tank

7)Super Tech Outboard 2-cycle TC-W3 engine oil
Unconventional (Not ULSD compliant, may damage 2007 or newer systems)
HFRR 474, 162 micron improvement
200:1 ratio
16.64 oz/tank
$1.09/tank

8)Stanadyne Lubricity Formula
Lubricity Only
demulsifier, 5% bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free
HFRR 479, 157 micron improvement
1000:1 ratio
3.32 oz/tank
$1.00/tank

9)Amsoil Diesel Concentrate
Multi-purpose
demulsifier, bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free
HFRR 488, 148 micron improvement
640:1 ratio
5.2 oz/tank
$2.16/tank

10)Power Service Diesel Kleen + Cetane Boost
Multi-purpose
Cetane improver, bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free
HFRR 575, 61 micron improvement
400:1 ratio
8.32 oz/tank
$1.58/tank

11)Howe’s Meaner Power Kleaner
Multi-purpose
Alcohol free
HFRR 586, 50 micron improvement
1000:1 ratio
3.32 oz/tank
$1.36/tank

12)Stanadyne Performance Formula
Multi-purpose + anti-gel
cetane improver, demulsifier, 5% bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free
HFRR 603, 33 micron improvement
480:1 ratio
6.9 oz/tank
$4.35/tank

13)Used Motor Oil, Shell Rotella T 15w40, 5,000 miles used.
Unconventional (Not ULSD compliant, may damage systems)
HFRR 634, 2 micron improvement
200:1 ratio
16.64 oz/tank
price: market value

14)Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant
Gas or diesel
HFRR 641, 5 microns worse than baseline (statistically insignificant change)
427:1 ratio
7.8 oz/tank
$2.65/tank

15)B1000 Diesel Fuel Conditioner by Milligan Biotech
Multi-purpose, canola oil based additive
HFRR 644, 8 microns worse than baseline (statistically insignificant change)
1000:1 ratio
3.32 oz/tank
$2.67/tank

16)FPPF Lubricity Plus Fuel Power
Multi-purpose + anti-gel
Emulsifier, alcohol free
HFRR 675, 39 microns worse than baseline fuel
1000:1 ratio
3.32 oz/tank
$1.12/tank

17)Marvel Mystery Oil
Gas, oil and Diesel fuel additive (NOT ULSD compliant, may damage 2007 and newer systems)
HFRR 678, 42 microns worse than baseline fuel.
320:1 ratio
10.4 oz/tank
$3.22/tank

18)ValvTect Diesel Guard Heavy Duty/Marine Diesel Fuel Additive
Multi-purpose
Cetane improver, emulsifier, alcohol free
HFRR 696, 60 microns worse than baseline fuel
1000:1 ratio
3.32 oz/tank
$2.38/tank

19)Primrose Power Blend 2003
Multi-purpose
Cetane boost, bio-diesel compatible, emulsifier
HFRR 711, 75 microns worse than baseline
1066:1 ratio
3.12 oz/tank
$1.39/tank

CONCLUSIONS:

Products 1 through 4 were able to improve the unadditized fuel to an HFRR score of 460 or better. This meets the most strict requirements requested by the Engine Manufacturers Association.

Products 1 through 9 were able to improve the unadditized fuel to an HFRR score of 520 or better, meeting the U.S. diesel fuel requirements for maximum wear scar in a commercially available diesel fuel.

Products 16 through 19 were found to cause the fuel/additive blend to perform worse than the baseline fuel. The cause for this is speculative.

This is not unprecedented in HFRR testing and can be caused by alcohol or other components in the additives. Further investigation into the possibilities behind these poor results will investigated.

Any additive testing within +/- 20 microns of the baseline fuel could be considered to have no significant change. The repeatability of this test allows for a +/- 20 micron variability to be considered insignificant.

CREDITS:

This study would not have been possible without the participation of all companies involved and dieselplace.com. A special Thank You to all of the dieselplace.com members who generously donated toward this study and waited longer than they should have for the results. You folks are the best. Arlen Spicer, organizer."
 

dpantazis

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i posted the entire posting of the report. some people got confused by the linking.

dan-

it occured to me that you ALREADY get treated, good fuel by default as MN has min B2 as a mandate. not all of us get bio blends by law.

your previous posts are confusing. you said have run standyne and PS too. i think you said you were running one of the FPPF's currently.

like i asked Bama- what are your goals to putting in additives? you have to determine what your goals and objectives are. the information in the report is trying to summarize lab tests. they are performed in a controlled environment and the results are standardized. how it relates to real world experience is a whole other matter. no one can tell you what the magic elixir is for your truck. YMMV-literally.

baseline HFRR is like 636,
acceptable wear scar is 520 microns. average sample wear was graded against this number. i am going by memory on these.

excerpts from the report to illustrate the data and performance of different blends


2% REG SoyPower biodiesel - HFRR 221, 415 micron improvement.
meaning :
HFRR 221, lower number is better. baseline HFRR is like 636, so its pretty slippery at 221.
reduction in wear pattern of the test apparatus, acceptable wear scar is 520 microns. average sample wear was 520-415=105 microns wear total wear scar, vs the acceptable norm of 520.

obviously, not all B2's are equal, but I would guess that yours is probably pretty close.

D2 with additives-

Super Tech Outboard 2-cycle TC-W3 engine oil, at 200:1 ratio
HFRR 474, 162 micron improvement
meaning its numbers are a little bit better than Stanadyne when mixed with regular diesel, but not as good as B2.

Stanadyne Lubricity Formula, Lubricity Only, demulsifier, 5% bio-diesel compatible, alcohol free
HFRR 479, 157 micron improvement
meaning not as slippery as B2, better than straight Diesel No 2.
wear pattern reduced, but not as much as B2.

FPPF Lubricity Plus Fuel Power Multi-purpose + anti-gel, Emulsifier, alcohol free
HFRR 675, 39 microns worse than baseline fuel
meaning the baseline slipperyness is WORSE than staight Diesel No 2 and the wear pattern is 520+39=559 total, higher than the accepted norms.

is this clear to you? what are your questions?

dennis
 

dpantazis

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and another thing to consider- these tests were ONLY meant for lube and wear.

they DO NOT asses things like wax disperssant, corrosion inhibitors, water demulsifiers, etc...

you do NOT want to use emulsifiers with diesels. that takes the water and breaks it down and it will pass the fuel/water separators and it ends up in places not designed for it.
 

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